Yet, if Mary did not inherit the stain of original sin passed down from Adam, she would not have died and therefore no need to rescue her from death before her earthly life ended. Can you give one example in the New Testament where it describes God or Jesus being a preemptive savior instead of a redemptive redeeming savior? Trent, in your recent podcast rebutting Ray Comfort, you said Jesus is the only person referred to as the son of Mary. And as Jimmy Akin has pointed out, if Mary needed to be sinless in order to give birth to the Messiah, then her mother would have to be sinless and her mother would have to be sinless all the way back to Eve and so it doesnt work. Okay. If any man should presume to make such an attempt, let him know that he will incur the wrath of almighty God and the blessed apostles, Peter and Paul. The relevance would be that you are using it. Regarding the Immaculate Conception, the other Pope declared, but not infallibly, the most blessed Virgin Mary in the first instance of her conception was preserved free from all stain of original sin is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to believe firmly and constantly by all the faithful. 15. My point though was to show that the Marian dogmas do not contradict Scripture. Because there would be no reason to rescue her from death because a purpose of a bodily assumption into heaven is so an individual would not see death. So then the word adelphos could also apply in this case to describe people that they have the same adoptive father, Joseph, but different mothers, Josephs first wife and his second wife. Second, this debate is not about the church fathers or Christian history. Hebrews 9:27 says, Its appointed for men to die once, but some people die twice. They can live out the gospel teaching in their unique holy family. 2022 Defenders Media All Rights Reserved, Apologetics315 is a ministry of Defenders Media, 501(c)(3) a non-profit organization. I only have to prove there is no contradiction. In fact, the Bible often speaks about things like human sinfulness or human mortality as a universal truth and those things really are universal, but it doesnt always mention the exceptions that do occur to these universal rules. Well, it uses the Greek word for brother. In his study of Josephus and the Hebrew canon, Jonathan Campbell points out that the roughly contemporaneous text of 4 Ezra assumes the existence of ninety-four Jewish scriptures. Of course, this objection becomes a problem for Protestants since by this standard, many of their doctrine like sola scriptura, eternal security, sola fide would also arrive too late in church history to count as being apostolic. Until his death of cancer at 74 in May, Zacharias had been one of the best-known figures of American Christian radio and TV for decades. So if Mary died, which the dogma, the bodily assumption in 1950 strongly implies, this demonstrates Mary inherited original sin from Adam. We wouldnt expect it. When Matthew 1:25 writes, Joseph kept Mary a virgin until she gave birth to a son, the specific Greek words [foreign language 00:02:06] when translated until, is used consistently in the New Testament to refer to a change in condition. I would like to demand that everybody hit that like button. Sounds like youre posing the question to you, Steve. So whenever you want to begin, I will click the 10 minute button. I bet maybe you would kneel before it in prayer, you would weep to see that through this means our salvation was procured. And so moving from that, that if Jesus Christ did establish the church, if Im confident of that and in its teaching authority, then I can be confident in what the Pope teaches about Mary in regards to those two dogmas but I can especially have confidence knowing that what is taught does not contradict scripture. Steven Pinker is a scientist and public intellectual, provocative, informed and informative. Finally, as H.G.L. So Im going to cover four of them. Even Trent has argued that the word does not mean to be immaculately conceived. The same in any intellectual study. Yet evidence of her sinful nature was her lack of exemption of the temporal penalty of death passed on to her from Adams. There might be historical errors, for example, in some magisterial documents, talking about the history of a doctrine, whether a certain saint or father believed X, Y, or Z. Infallibility has a narrow sense and only covers what is specifically defined. It is never used for a female non-sibling relative in either Testament, nor in its Greek. And of course we can get into the whole Latria and Dulia argument, but thats not what this debate is actually about. I mean, I have to really think about that. First, ancient Jews kept their books in a series of scrolls and not in a single book, so its anachronistic to say this refers to the table contents in a book. Also death is not a sign of being a sinner, as Steve alluded to earlier. Trent made the comment about the word until thats used in Second Samuel, but it uses the word [Greek 00:37:31], not [Greek 00:37:31]. So then if Jesus was referred to as the carpenters son, and its a patronym, would this eliminate his brothers being older stepbrothers, according to the Protoevangelium of James? So Steves defending the affirmative. They were both Catholic. So Steve is saying that the word adelphi, which means sister. Let me ask you this, was Jesus Christ free from sin? Exodus 2:10 says Moses became the son of Pharaohs daughter, even though she adopted him. A four-month investigation found the late Ravi Zacharias leveraged his reputation as a world-famous Christian apologist to abuse massage therapists in the United States and abroad over more than. Does the Bible say that every human person without exception has been conceived in original sin? The Protoevangelium of James does talk about Mary being very mature for her age, walking at an early age, for example, and being precocious. Tweet: 0 replies, 655 views. Removing this book will also remove your associated ratings, reviews, and reading sessions. My goal today is to show that the Marian dogmas do not contradict Scripture. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. Yeah. - Fr. Whenever you begin, I will click your time for-. Well, of course not. Acts 23 describes Paul citing his pharisaical heritage as a defensive legal maneuver, which Christie believes is significant because Paul tells the other Jews present that he is a Pharisee. How do we know this from the New Testament? Finally, Christies Pharisee argument for the Protestant Old Testament canon fails because its logic can be used to make a similar argument for a completely different Old Testament canon. But Paul stopped being a Pharisee after he became a Christian. For example, Jesus said among those born of women none was greater than John the Baptist (Luke 7:28)and John was not a Pharisee. For example, although Josephus seems to defend what is equivalent to the Protestant canon, scholars recog-nize his propensity for exaggeration. Id probably enjoy Polycarp. And more importantly, thats not what we are debating. I do remember in that debate with James White five years ago, saying, Our theology should come from the Bible, not the Bible from our theology. And I was not arguing for Sola Scriptura. It doesnt mention sin there. Lets talk about the perpetual virginity of Mary. Philosophy program at Talbot. But in the infancy narrative, were just talking about the birth of the firstborn in accord with The Mosaic Law. Did I have one other thing here? He says, Steve. Instead, these manuscripts contain the deuterocanonical books, and they correspond to the Church councils of this era such as Hippo and Carthage that also affirmed the inspiration of these books. What plunged mankind into the fall was Adams sin, which resulted in Adam and by extension all of mankind, including Mary, physically dying. Be sure to check out Steve's speech at Wyohackathon.io it was a very interesting talk about the history of money. The importance of discussing these Marian dogma is more than merely to debate them. Trent mentioned about dying once. So when were speaking of the adelphos, the brethren of the Lord, its used in some sort of non-standard way. Although the Pharisees had authority regarding ritual practices, they did not have doctrinal authority over other Jews, including those who came to believe Jesus was the messiah. Im trying to appeal to Catholic guilt, but its not working. So yeah, I would just encourage people just to continue to read and learn, dive into the word, dive into the teachings of the church historically, just to come to a knowledge of the church Jesus Christ established. And again, if he meant only child, he wouldve used monogenes like he used it elsewhere in Lukes gospel. A fully independent, lay-run, 501(c)(3) ministry that receives no funding from the institutional Church, we rely entirely on the generosity of everyday people like you to keep this website going with trustworthy, fresh, and relevant content. It can also refer to a half sibling as well, such as in the Old Testament, the word for brother is used to refer to Ruben as being the brother of his half brothers. I say this by way of concession, not of command. For example, if the Bible taught that Mary gave birth to other children, that she committed a sin, or that she was not assumed into heaven, the dogmas would be falsified. And remember this is the focus of our debate, how its used in scripture. Zacharias' daughter, Sarah Davis, posted a message on the website of Ravi Zacharias International Ministries on Tuesday, titled " Ravi Zacharias, Now With Jesus ," confirming that the . Without separating the Marian dogmas from them are where these much, much later Marian dogmas developed from and later forced into the text, which would have been foreign to the biblical writers. And this includes Mary, who Jesus saved her by redeeming and delivering her from her sins. Christie also claims Jesus reference to the Pharisee Nicodemus as the teacher of Israel (John 3:10) meant the Pharisees had unique teaching authority over other Jews. Okay. . I dont have a problem with the word a adelphos, that was never my argument. Well, I would say that it contradicts it because if she was indeed sinless, Mary would not have been bodily assumed into heaven for the reasons I stated in my opening statement. He graduated from UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI / SCHOOL OF MEDICINE in 1995. Facebook But lets have this be the last response to a response, because then Im going to ask Trent to question, then you are going to get to respond to that. And I truly believe that because youre a nice guy. As far as original sin, if you look at catholic.com, the encyclopedia, it states that The Second Council of Orange, it states that, The death of the body, which is the punishment for sin. In other words, sin results in death of the body. They would be sons from another marriage. But even St. Louis de Montfort who uses very lofty language of Mary says of her that she is but one Adam in comparison to the infinite and majestic glory that is God. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. So again, weve gone through a lot of scripture here, but none of them stick and show that the Marian Dogmas are contradicted by the Bible in any way. Hes saying that every ethnic group is guilty of sin, whether youre a Jew or a non Jew. Dear catholic.com visitors: This website from Catholic Answers, with all its many resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. My screen name is BornAgainRN, so you can look at me that way. According to one commentary Marys song like Hannahs declares that security and significance are found in a God who would care about the broken and poor enough to give himself to them. Being sinful is saying that you have inherited original sin and becoming sin means that sin was imputed to you. Second, the Zechariah killed in 2 Chronicles was the son of Jehoiada, not Berechiah. So I dont know if that answers a question but probably the bodily assumption. First Corinthians 15, in my opening statement, it says that there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies and people who have earthly bodies are sown perishable, meaning corruptible in dishonor, meaning contempt, reproach. The second best result is Steven Luke Christie age 40s in New Hyde Park, NY in the Garden City Park neighborhood. Cyril of Jerusalem refers to Baruch as the prophet, cites Baruch 3:35-37 in defense of the deity of Christ and includes Baruch in the writings of Jeremiah in his list of the canon. Although I first heard of Greg Koukl as an undergrad at Biola University in the mid 90s, we became good friends in the early 2000s as students in the M.A. Over the past couple of years, I have followed the rise and fall of the Non-Sequitur show. Given that the church both east and west had access to the same scriptures as us and were closer to the time of the apostles, how do you justify the church being in era for so long on a number of the Marion doctrines? When the New Testament writers wish to convey female non-sibling relatives, such as Elizabeth and Mary, they chose other Greek words, such as [foreign language 00:01:39] or [foreign language 00:01:39] So also, Luke 14:12 and 21:16, where the evangelist uses different Greek words to distinguish relatives from brothers. Ravi Zacharias has long been recognized as one of the most respected of Christian apologists. What we can find in the writings of the Church Fathers, however, are hundreds of citations of the deuterocanonical books as inspired Scripture. And we can actually discern from others passages in scripture that Jesus brothers are his biological younger half siblings. No, of course not. Sure. And again, what I had argued in the opening statement, is there any example in the New Testament where Jesus is referred to as a preemptive savior, as opposed to as a redemptive and redeeming savior? It sounds like you are using it for your view of Jesus in a very unique way. I just want to make sure. You talked a little about in Adam, all die, but notice here there are exceptions. Yeah. Add another name to the list of Buffalo Bills greats who have endured a traumatic 2014.The Bills' all-time greatest kicker, Steve Christie, Ex-Bills kicker Steve Christie reveals his successful . Apologetics for the Masses #366 - 4 Words That Changed the World, Part III. My point in that its not the definite article that is interesting, the son of Mary. I put you on the spot with that, so theres no worries. But I mean, some of the early ones, Id probably Definitely not Judas Iscariot. And again, in Sirach chapter 18, I think its verse 17 in the Septuagint uses this same Greek word, but in the masculine to refer to man being full of grace as [inaudible 01:21:46] and obviously Trent and I would agree that it doesnt mean that way. Christie has nine field goals in overtime to his credit, an NFL record he shares with Jason Elam and Jim Breech. Were going to move into seven-minute rebuttals. Or, since Jesus said the Pharisees in his presence murdered this person, it could refer to one of Jesus contemporaries. But Steve cant construct a Protestant canon out of what Jesus and the apostles cited because, as Protestant scholar Bruce Metzger observes, Nowhere in the New Testament is there a direct quotation from the canonical books of Joshua, Judges, Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, the Song of Solomon, Obadiah, Zephaniah, and Nahum; and the New Testament allusions to them are few in number (The Cambridge History of the Bible, 148). And you, just so people are aware, arent being mean or anything by doing that. First Corinthians chapter seven, again, it says, For a season in order to separate, but then it says, So that you go back, married couples to go back so you do not get tempted by Satan because of your lack of self-control. Probably not like any other piece of wood. So hes just talking about this birthright that he mentions about 10 versus later. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: http://vernisage.us/stevechristie/ Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Okay. They also didnt believe the Gospels or other New Testament documents were inspired, so they dont have a great track record when it comes telling us what is and isnt Scripture. We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. And weve also addressed that frequently at catholic.com. This question is for Steve from super chat megentlevolp. Some of these questions are for both of you but it might be better if I ask a question, just one of you respond since we have so many. So, if the greatest of those born before Christ wasnt constricted to accepting the canon Christie is defending, then we shouldnt be compelled to do the same, either. . In that respect Marys Magnificat parallels Hannahs song in 1 Samuel. We receive no funding from the institutional Church and rely entirely on your generosity to sustain this website with trustworthy, accessible content. Psalm 132:8 says Arise, Lord, and come to your resting place, you and the ark of your might. Can you describe the ark?. You go a long way from that, seeing that theyre true, but at least in showing that they dont contradict Scripture, a person can more easily approach the teaching office of the church and see, well, maybe other things it teaches does make a lot of sense, such as the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the existence of an enduring Magisterium, baptismal regeneration, and other things like that. But here Strongs says brother but that could also mean half brother, right? And they did not want people following them. Because the details about whether she died or not have not been given to us in the deposit of faith, that particular fact has not been given to us. Thank you very much, Trent. Luke 2:7 describes Jesus as the firstborn of Mary, although the Greek word [foreign language 00:04:11] translated firstborn, can indicate firstborn opening the womb and is used this way in the New Testament. Do you still have it? Dr. Steven A. Christie MD Radiology General Radiology Kendall, FL Male 21+ Yrs Experience English 7500 SW 87th Ave, Kendall, FL Overview Location & Contact Education & Experience Overview. Steve Jordahl, Billy Davis. Just like that Scripture includes things within it that are not necessarily scientifically accurate, scriptures without error. Its a very beautiful open community and you get free daily podcasts and I think youd really enjoy it. And then take heart in knowing that these teachings about Mary dont contradict Scripture, and then we can further infer and try to understand what are the sources of divine revelation. Matthew was simply not concerned with telling us what did happen after Jesus was born. And so if it doesnt contradict scripture, then it should be an issue between Catholics and Protestants of secondary importance, much like how people disagree about infant baptism. The Counsel of Trent 46.3K subscribers In this debate, originally hosted at Pints with Aquinas, Trent Horn engages Protestant apologist Steve Christie on the question of whether the Marian. Also, Paul drew extensively on themes from the deuterocanonical works in his own writings. bitcoin wyohackathon bitcoinkn.com Trace Mayer Steve Christie Kraken.com. Rather, this counterfeit Mary developed over several centuries based on false typologies, which conflict with Scripture, no different than what Mormons, Jehovahs Witnesses, and Muslims have done with Jesus. Dear catholic.com visitors: This Catholic Answers website, with all its free resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. Hebrews 11:5 states, "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death.' And he was not found because God took him up. Okay. In week 9 vs. the New York Jets, Christie went 3 for 4 on field-goal attempts (20, 29, & 34 yards). I think there is good reason to believe that, but thats not what were debating today. A protestant scholar Craig keener says neither the title favored or graced one nor the promise the Lord is with you was traditional in greetings even if the person had been of status. Since the Catholic church is certain that the brothers of Jesus are anything other than biological siblings, meaning uterine siblings, why are they not able to be just a certain specifically who they are? Yes. Theres more to it than that. in Aberdeen Scotland., The United Kingdom It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: http://vernisage.us/stevechristie/ Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: So if the Bible taught that every human Im sorry that every woman gave birth to children or that every person without exception commits personal sins or that no one has ever been assumed into heaven, then the dogmas would be falsified. Well, right. So our listeners can go there to read that. He was human. I have also appeared several The infallible authority of Scripture versus a fallible self-proclaimed authority of the Magisterium, which demands a faithful Catholic to believe these dogmas threatening them with excommunication for denying them, despite all of them contradicting Scripture. So its not saying that he died. 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