Judging by the comments I see here some of you really, really need it. Ive found that people who define things outside of the bigger community of the global Church, through the centuries, have too narrow opinions on Jesus and Pauls teachings. It doesnt mean that homosexuals shouldnt be allowed in the church however. The gospel of Jesus is the core of our faith. That is, as one man and one woman? Call off the attack dogs. This timeline is compelling and will sadly, i fear, be ignored. But we have GRACE. A church plant in 2008, our church has been nomads in a myriad of locations in the South Austin area. CARE FOR ALL PEOPLE. Next up: ad hominen attacks on anyone that considers LGBT lifestyles anathema to a faith-driven life. Uh-oh, it looks like its Jen Hatmakers turn. The few times PAUL talks about homosexuality, FYI, he either uses the terms that literally mean pedophilia OR they get lumped in with every other sexual act outside of marriage, including STRAIGHT SEX. I am with Mike. Its just so obvious that the creator God made man for man. NO sin is okay with God, from the way you lust in your mind about someone walking by you down the street or when you utter even the smallest curse against someone in your mind (Jesus said those crimes are adultery and murder, respectively). Many are calling it out. Praise God David that He never left your side and He indeed had a better place for you. It seems to be the only one you can quote here. Yes the 2nd chapter of Genesis is poetry. Most respectful comments disagreeing with her stance are deleted. Im not trying to bait you or flame you or troll you or whatever. Sooner or later they start excluding their own, throwing those members they perceive to be recalcitrant over the wall to the wolves below. the spirit of the world is dark, indeed. Its Biblical. Law and love are often in conflict. Whatever that sin is, we have to turn. Stop posting if you wish to avoid correction or unfounded hatred. Its tiring to read all these comments urging us to root out heresy (as if Jen Hatmaker is a heretic). It was put out publicly by the husband I think on their Facebook page that they felt they were led to believe that as long as a homosexual couple are faithful to one another the its fine just like a normal marriage. But it feels more like an abusive home than a healthy one, a point also made in this blog. Is one sin worse than another? It all matters, but, just sayin Both sides!). [] women of privilege are protecting the last remnants of institutional prestige, and it looks bad. Back in the day, I was chatting with my Baptist pastor in my home church about what I was studying at Regent College with people like Packer, Peterson, and Walke and I was told that they werent really Evangelicals. It was dying out in the early church, but still happened. Whoever marries her that is divorced is guilty of sex sins in marriage.. This nonsensical complaining of yours is unbecoming. Homosexuality isnt the only sin there are other sins but since this is the topic here being discussed-Well church is for everyone-its for the sick not the well. In my view, heresy is anything that keeps someone from falling into the arms of Jesus and His grace. 1,832 were here. If you want to stay in the fold, youd best be subordinately silent. So where does same-sex marriage fall on this? Whether it be drunkiness,adultery or homosexuality. An to be a Christ followed we have to die to our sin and live for Christ. No, Jesus didnt specifically say its wrong to deliberately injure yourself, but you cant love your neighbor if you dont love yourself. The only concern I have about this is there is a difference in my view of confronting personal sin, or solving a personal conflict (which has a biblical process as to prevent gossip and slander); and confronting a public teaching. According to James 1:27, Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.. They are the most miserable of companions. Is that a strict standard? Cracking a loud whip has always been the most effective means of controlling the movement of large groups of animals. Deli studied . What you arent wanting to hear is a calm, sincere appeal to Biblical truths. And making comments such as Jesus doesnt speak to homosexuality is, well, a bit simplistic. That being said, the rise of the celebrity Christian/social commentator/preacher seems to exacerbate many of the issues Mike draws attention to. That doesnt mean that it isnt a sin when you take the entire Bible into consideration. Im finding new eyes to see what it really means to follow the Messiah Jesus and it doesnt look like what I just experienced. Saying that a certain act is not a sin, is the same as saying that I dont need Jesus to wash away my sins.. Shes a heretic! She also said she attempted suicide. 7:30 pm Primary Purpose - IN-PERSON. But that also shouldnt stop us from loving one another. Some tens of thousands of believers were martyred in 2016 and Jen Hatmaker is complaining about internet trolls and theological criticism. Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Austin Miniatures Western Barn Wild West Cowboys Conte Compatible Marx TSSD at the best online prices at eBay! Would you kick him out of your church because he doesnt believe that part of the Bible? Austin Miniatures Western Church Wild West Cowboys Conte Compatible Marx TSSD. Those old theologians were big on grace and were vehement defenders of the idea that we acquire salvation by Gods grace alone, not by works (I agree with this). In the meantime, lets pray for our sister currently in the crosshairs of unhealthy religion, knowing that at any time it could be you or me who draws the ire of her detractors. I begged these people to stop and shared with them how it was affecting me and my staff. I do agree with Mike, Surely, if you think a person is guilty of teaching or promoting heresy your primary motivation would be to want to correct that person and restore them to orthodox faith. People often say things are facts based only on their opinions and interpretations but saying theyre absolute eternal truths? Why are other leaders so quick to forget this. Austin New Church in Austin, TX 78704 is Verified Clear LGBTQ Policy Hires: Yes Weddings: No Ordains: Yes Leadership: Women in Leadership Polcy Preaches: Yes Ordains: Yes Governance: Yes Senior Pastor: Yes Updated on Nov 19, 2019 Church Information Address 2701 South Lamar Boulevard Austin, TX 78704 Leadership Pastor: Jason Morriss Gender: Man These reflect ACTIONS of FAITH. To me this is just one more instance of tolerance being a one way street. She doesnt owe you a personal response. JM states he was silently pro gay marriage when he was hired but kept this position hidden and claims his ability to not be cornered regarding his doctrinal views: I can do the presidential pivot. Prior to October of 2016 traditional Christian marriage was the Hatmakers official position. 20,804 Hoda Kotb's lengthy 'Today' show absence finally explained And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. Austin Miniatures Western Hotel Saloon 2 story Wild West Cowboys . Have you ever held a rattlesnake or chugged a bottle of Clorox? The author thought he had the dream job: pastoring a megachurch. Maybe then they could have seen how badly they were treating someone that was faithfully guiding a congregation that loved him dearly. RELIGION ACTIONS of the individual, Instead of: It is never correct to say any sin is okay. Jesus didnt waver one millimeter from the Truths he spoke and nor should Christians who profess to follow Him. Isnt it interesting, the things that indicate when we should keep away from a sinful brother or sister. My belief is, Love Christ, Love each other and pray for wisdom. If Jen Hatmaker was silent on the issue and started loving on homosexuals, nobody would say anything. And how could the writer possibly individually approach all Christians with a message he feels is important? I think everybody should be treated with love and respect at church no matter what their sexual orientation. The reason Jesus doesnt talk about a same-sex marital covenant is because such a thing doesnt exist in the Bible. Specialties: Our dream is to have an increasingly positive impact on the South Austin Community. In-person. And Ive heard Rob Bell speak movingly about the cruel and unusual punishment meted out by his evangelical brothers.. She knew this was going to be controversial and she chose to go forward because she felt strongly about it. He also doesnt condemn those who have had sex outside of marriage as though they should be forbidden from heaven, though he does request that they go and sin no more, he leaves the execution of that command up to the person he says it to. The whole account shows Jesus mercy for sinners, certainly not a model for punishing the sinner. I think most people on the other side do not want to intentionally be mean or attacking. Denying that homosexuality is a sin is a form of self-justification! Jesus did say those who are WITHOUT sin, cast the first stone. I believe Jesus did not say you may shame people if your sin is not worse than otherssin. But according to Bibles self-described marriage covenant, they are not marriage. We skip over the times God commissions his people to kill in his name. Maybe. But if a person is claiming to be a Christian but keeps insisting that any sins pointed out in the Bible are not sin, and after being shown time and again that theyre wrong, then there does come a time when it says in the Bible Do not even eat with such a person. Or are you making the point that its ok to be harsh because of Jesus example at the temple? I am ok if any of you disagree with me. It will open us up to the new: while religion continues to be a profoundly important vehicle for personal and community identity it also embraces a humility borne of the awareness that our knowledge is partial we see through a glass only darkly. They believe that in order to be saved, you have to be baptizedits a requirement. One is the leaven of the Pharisees, one is the leaven of the Herodians, both are an affront to the gospel. Thats why you go first alone, then take a witness or two and finally tell the church. Jesus did say Burn thine enemies to the ground when they disagree with you. Shes not a heretic. http://bible.com/114/1co.5.11-13.nkjv, Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. 2:24. What comes to mind is what God said when his people were sacrificing their children to Baal and Moloch: It never even entered my mind though He never gave the explicit command in the Law, Thou shall not sacrifice your children, we know its wrong. Can core beliefs and clear tenets of faith survive for very long in the same room as life and health and love? One more question to you all who point fingers to those whose sin ( your word) is public, I want to ask- where is your contrition for shaming others? Lets all do our best to avoid generalities. In seeking purity, all they do is destroy. 1:1-2. We should love every one but never condone sin. ANY sex outside of that is morally wrong in Gods eyes. We are all guilty of sin but in Christ we are forgiven of them all, yes but we cant minimize sin or negate it to suite the winds of cultural change, as some feel Jen has done. But I dont wish on my worst enemy the pain that I, my family, Rob Bell, McLaren, or Jen Hatmaker have gone through. Do you believe this, and if not how do you justify that? Im not saying we should ignore theology that seems to be pushing the boundaries of orthodoxy, but it seems there should be a more gentle attitude when engaging or pushing back on beliefs which concern us. And did he lower the behavioral bar re sexual sin or raise it? I Corinthians 5:10-13 NKJV Maybe in those days that was considered finding common ground.. But my confidence in what we call the church, or American evangelicalism is shattered deeply. Typos! You might as well say two people chatting over coffee should be held to a higher standard. thanks, Yes, and you should NEVER chase them with a whip. Your email address will not be published. (At the same time I was reading all the blog posts about it. 1,863 were here. In like fashion, conservatives are trying to reason from Scripture why homosexual sex (as well as any sex outside of marriage, including LOOKING at another person with lust in your heart) is damnable sin but thanks be to God we are SAVED in CHRIST from it! It was also the official position of ANC. Or you dont believe its sin or are unsure, and you can practice theological justification that doesnt need the cross for this particular issue. Just playin devils advocate here a bit, but when we say Jesus didnt speak to homosexuality, are we seriously suggesting he didnt comment on sexuality itself as it stood in the Scriptural tradition? This is not about a personal sin or a personal doubt, this is about her clear rejection of an eternal truth. Some people just have a vile hatred of all things Old Testament. But I understand itI was one of those at one time, too. It is neither your job nor your ability to call out someone elses sin. In the Dallas, TX area 7 Months ago, the church I founded as a church planter was destroyed from this kind of mentality (I graduated from Fuller Theological Seminary and have pastored for over 20+ years). The result is seldom effective, convincing, or pleasant and generally elicits a predictable backlash from the online masses. I will simply READ MY BIBLE. JM updates facebook Left Job at Free Methodist Church USA Jesus wanted to create a stampede of animals out of the temple, and theres no reason to conclude he used the whip for any other purpose than this. So if I am being loving, I am accepting and embracing all kinds of heresies and now truth is blasphemed. New Releases. It was the era of the Walkman, acid wash jeans, Miami Vice, Chernobyl, and the beginning. I give God thanks that I am now the VP of a non-profit organization, where each day is a place of healing, care, and love. Do you believe in predestination, and, if not, how do you justify that? Just like many other sins, of course. I agree. Holy, sacred space I thought I had healed, I thought I was coping well with sexism in my world. Your response: It IS a Gospel issue! We have to die to our sin, our own desires and live for Christ. Updated August 18, 2020 Share. Humanitarian. Im simply asking you to justify the parts of the Bible you either reinterpret or ignore altogether. The Scriptures are very clear that predestination exists, yet there are millions of believers who dont believe in it. I agree with you, Mike. Wait. Even if you hate me for it. They have also founded the Austin New Church in Austin, Texas along with Legacy Collective, a community foundation aiming to find sustainable housing, prevent child trafficking and provide health care, among other options. 100% with you, Mike Frost. 144 views, 5 likes, 6 loves, 13 comments, 0 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Austin New Church: ANC 02-26-2023 Sunday Live Service Through my pain, I am in such a better place, but honestly my wounds still seep and Im still licking them toward wholeness. Other indicators include: I think what conservative evangelicals do to their brothers and sisters who come to different views to theirs is a clear mark of unhealthy religion. Do you believe that the earth was created in six days? As strongly as your convictions are explained here, please remember that many conservatives feel equally as strong regarding their heartfelt desire for biblical holiness. Some express it in healthy ways, some do not. That said, theres absolutely no need to try a person in the court of public opinion as they suss out their own responsibilities, sexual or otherwise, before God. This isnt great, Mike, and soooo important. Do you keep the Sabbath holy? Jesus reprimanded the woman at the well. At the same time large swaths of the blogosphere blew up with the story, starting with Christian watchblogs and Christian feminist blogs and then spreading to atheist sites. And maybe that is good. What good is it?! Correction to above: That is, as one man and one woman? Should have read That is, as being expressed fully in marriage between one man and one woman?. Because they are against what God says is wrong. This blog post is corrective, but it is not hateful. And maybe even a little doctrinaire? Be assured that you were persecuted for all the right reasons and God had control of the outcome! But you miss the third part of Jesus statement regarding how to deal with the one who sins against you. Yes, an email, phone call, face-to-face communication is the first step, and inviting third parties (two or three witnesses) is the second step. I dont know the specifics on Jen, so just a general comment/question: When, in your mind, must a leader be called out for heresy or false doctrine? His Holiness Jesus was not harsh with sinners; His only harsh words were for wayward religious leaders. Showtimes. BURN. Thats the theological belief that God predestines some for heaven and some for hell. The old you have to be tolerant of my intolerance argument. And God HATES divorce. Its not as simple as that. One might postulate that a concerted, tactical, and very well-planned effort has been made within ANC since late Oct 16 to conform the church and its elders and teachers and official doctrinal positions to with JHs public positions, not the other way around. Austin New Church. Jesus says tons of things. What does he know? Yes, they need a public call out on it-otherwise it looks like the rest of the Christian world condones it and unfortunately there are a serious amount of people who are condoning it now and its just wrong just like condoning any other sin. And I think the fact that evangelicals seem to focus on one prominent dissenter at a time, making an example of that person by public mockery and critique is cruel and unbecoming. Its crazy to speculate what Jesus would or would not approve of if he didnt specifically speak about it. Do you keep Saturdays holy? So hopefully nobody interprets my misgivings to this article as being a religious bigot. Did Jesus condemn homosexualituy? The third step, if neither of these causes restoration, is tell it to the church, and if [s]he refuses to listen to even the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector (Matthew 18:15-17). It never has. Anyone who writes a damning or imperious or condescending comment on their blog is only showing they have no such concern for the person Approach them directly; raise your concerns respectfully; where appropriate and reasonable, invite a third party into the discussion. I cant imagine how this approach would lead a person down the wrong path. Seems to me if the person in question is public about their position then the response to that position may be public too. ANC: Austin New Church, Hatmakers' church in Austin FMCUSA: the Free Methodist Church- USA, which ANC was affiliated with and financially sustained by since its inception JH: Jen Hatmaker, member of Austin New Church (ANC), occasional preacher, no official leadership position stated BH: Brandon Hatmaker, founding pastor and elder at ANC At some point the quantity and quality of ex-evangelicals will outweigh the insiders, and evangelicalism will struggle surely supporting Trump is against its original principles and a sign of its death. Principles of Community | Reflections from Acts, LOCATION | The 04 Center2701 S Lamar Blvd, Austin, TX 78704, SERVICE | Sundays 10:30**Kids/Students Programming and Livestream available. This is not the Jesus I know, the Jesus who ate with notorious sinners and scandalized the religious as a result. If you dont agree with it, then say so-though your wrong to disagree with it- but dont say something isnt there when it is. Notice that disagreeing with a persons position on a theological issue isnt one of them. God comes first. March 26: Remaining elders, including BH, re-affirm the affirming position first announced to ANC via the internet interview. One form is that we are righteous and can get to heaven through out good deeds. So I guess the real question for people with opposit sex attraction is what do you love more. Hey, Im not saying conservative evangelicalism is as bad as Jonestown, but I do know this: once the pack starts circling an identified victim theres very little stopping it. I believe the scriptures provide much more grace for a needy sinner including homosexuals. Jesus seems unwavering on what marriage is for life, one man, one woman, one flesh. Sunday, May 28, 2022 Ascension Day. Now on top of trying to figure out what the bible is saying (apart from the voices of all the teachers) I have to identify and correct all the non-biblical stuff I was taught. Sorry but Jesus said nothing about a man and a woman only, as a matter of you require a man and a woman to make a marriage, no gays allowed they were ASKING him about DIVORCE, and how a man could give a woman a letter and divorce her. And Im not sure what youre getting at in regard to child abuse. Trust me, being a friend to Jesus is worth any sacrifice. Not to slam the person personally. Actually S. Tannous what Ben E. Calvert said is VERY biblical. $99.99 + $51.77 shipping. Also, you can say it all you want, but monogamous, consensual, same sex relationships are neither sinful, nor addressed in scripture At. Wow, thanks for that. I find many here lining up in a militaristic way about their faith. She already said 2. I cant speak for all of Jens critics, but yes, a person with a platform that reaches millions of souls is important and it matters that they are presenting the right Gospel without wavering, and naturally people, myself, included, believe and want this Gospel to be clearly proclaimed no matter the cost. But He didnt. This is the Jesus I follow Have mercy, people. 6406 N I-35 Suite 3100 Austin, TX, 78752. So perhaps Gods standards for sexuality are a little more flexible than you might maintain? I did not come to bring peace but a sword. Its sometimes called the Doctrine of Election. You hear disagreement and immediately assume it is a voice of bloodlust and anger and vengeance, and its easy to avoid the weight of the Bible when you can just write off any reasoned appeal from Scripture as a a bigoted response from a close-minded fiend. He also confines marriage to man and woman by reiterating the words of Genesis 1 and 2 in Matthew 19. 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